Episode 18: How Romantic Relationships Become a Mirror for Inner Work with Katie Rossler

In romantic relationships the issues that trigger you are often a good indicator that there's something for you to work on within yourself.

You can glean an immense amount of information about yourself and your needs by noticing how your partner's behaviour triggers a reaction in you.

In this episode my guest, relationship expert Katie Rossler shares how to tap into the issues that annoy you and use them as a catalyst for your own personal growth.

Episode highlights:

• The ways your partner might reflect issues you need to work on
• How problems arise when you don't speak your truth
• Stop waiting for your partner to pick up on an unmet need and learn to voice it instead
• Why patterns repeat from one relationship to the next and how to work with them
• When to stay and when to leave
• How IQ and EQ affect the dynamic in a relationship
• Identifying what you want as well as what you don't want
• Being the partner you need to instigate change in a relationship
• Communication strategies to help you move through difficult chats

Katie is insightful and open with her knowledge, this conversation is essential listening for anyone looking to improve their romantic relationships.

Visit Katie's Website: www.katierossler.com

Access her FREE relationship assessment here

Connect with her on Instagram here

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Inside you'll find 21 practical, actionable stress reduction strategies to help you get your groove back. Buy the PDF guide here.

If you know you want more from your life or career but you're totally stuck about where to start, I invite you to book a complimentary strategy call with me here.

We'll uncover what's holding you back from the goals you want to achieve and you'll leave the call with actionable steps to get you moving in the right direction.

For the tea on me, how I work, who I coach and the packages I offer, please visit my website - www.emmaobriencoach.com

You can also connect with me on Instagram @emmaobriencoach where I share an abundance of tools, strategies and brilliant content, you might also see the occasional dog.

Check out two of my FREE online workshops:

My 7 Step Formula for Getting Unstuck

4 Ways to Stop Procrastination in its Tracks...

Transcript

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Emma O'Brien: Hi folks. Well, welcome to episode. 18 season, 2 of the lemons and pineapples podcast today, my guest is Katie Russler. And we're talking about how your romantic relationships will often be a mirror for the personal work that we need to be doing 1st a bit about my guest.

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Emma O'Brien: Katie has been a relationship counsellor and a coach for 15 years to high achieving couples. She supports couples to develop the relationship, they vision for their future. And this can mean helping them, rebuild their relationship or separating whilst still remaining friends. Katie has authored 2 books and is the host of the balance code for high achievers podcast welcome to this podcast Katie.

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Katie Rössler: Thank you, Emma. I'd loved having you on mine, and I'm really grateful that I get to be on yours. Now.

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Emma O'Brien: This is wonderful. And I'm really excited for this conversation. Today I love all things inner work and self development work. And I think learning in my own life, learning from my own triggers in relationships has been really profound, and it's been a catalyst for some enormous inner work and kind of quantum leaping my progress as a human. I think I think that's what we're all doing with inner work, really, isn't it? It's being better people. So I'm very excited for this conversation.

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Emma O'Brien: Can you kick us off

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Emma O'Brien: from your experience? In what ways do our partners reflect the stuff that we need to work on.

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Katie Rössler: Oh, goodness, yes, that's a great starting question. So what I find not only in in the work that I do, but in my my personal relationship, and I've been with my husband for 15 years. We've been married for 11 is that often the things that annoy us the most about our partners. The things that really get under our skin is a reflection of something we're unhappy about in ourselves. So.

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Katie Rössler: for example, let's say, my husband comes home, and he's, you know, on his phone a lot. And he's like barely responding. And and I just start to get really annoyed with him. And this becomes like a repeating pattern. Right?

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Katie Rössler: What I have found is when I have this major annoyance versus like, Hey, can you just put away the phone? But I'm like really aggravated when I do the self reflection of where in my life am I trying to escape and avoid?

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Katie Rössler: I will find the areas that I am like. You are a mirror to me right now.

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Katie Rössler: and when I work with couples they'll start to share. Oh, it annoys me so much. This person, you know, my partner's doing this, and they're so messy, and they're so this and that, and we would have usually just finished a conversation about their own stuff

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Katie Rössler: in their work, life in their friendship, life with their their family of origin, something going on. And I'll be like, Wow! This sounds like what we just talked about. But you're seeing it from somebody else doing it right. And they're like, Oh, my God, you're right. It's the mirror effect, because I love to call it the mirror effect.

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Katie Rössler: We can always see the issues. Other people have way clearer than our issues. So I like to view our relationship with our romantic partner as a really good kind of looking glass to what work we need to be doing.

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Katie Rössler: And I I find this even in our families right like. If our if our parents annoy us, if our our, you know adult siblings start to annoy, like even our cousins, or whatever aunts and uncles. Usually there's something they're doing that we either harbor some resentment because they have the freedom to say there what they want to say or act the way they want to or not have to work so hard, or whatever right?

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Katie Rössler: Or there is a reflection of something we're upset about within ourselves. So that whole system can really work to benefit you.

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Katie Rössler: If you'll look at it through that lens. If you'll go, man, I am so pissed off at you all the time lately about this?

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Katie Rössler: Where in my life am I reflecting something similar?

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Katie Rössler: And and what is it I'm upset at myself about? Really.

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Emma O'Brien: Yeah. And I think this the it's so so many things in there. I think it's so powerful. Triggers are wonderful teachers. And it's 1 thing I found, and I think sometimes there's an opportunity

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Emma O'Brien: when something's triggering you, to be able to communicate and need more effectively, because I think often in relationships, whether it's it's, you know, romantic relationships or work relationships or friendships. Often

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Emma O'Brien: deep problems arise when we don't speak our truth.

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Katie Rössler: Yep.

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Emma O'Brien: And it's an an invitation to say to somebody, actually, this isn't okay for me. And what came to mind when you were talking about a partner being on a phone all the time, is, there's also an element of where do I do that that I shouldn't do, which I think is the last place we look. So I think this is where the work you do so powerful is also what need is not being met, or what old wound is being stamped on cause. What sprung to mind when you were talking was for me.

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Emma O'Brien: I would feel like I was being ignored, and I'd feel like I wasn't important.

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Emma O'Brien: Yeah. And I think there's also work to have a look at voicing what you need instead from your partner.

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Emma O'Brien: calmly saying, when you are on your phone all the time. I feel like

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Emma O'Brien: I don't feel loved. I feel like I'm ignored. I don't feel like I'm a priority.

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Emma O'Brien: and I think often. Then, having a look at okay, where does that come from? And where is there some really deep work to do to heal that that old wound.

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Katie Rössler: Definitely like, where am I ignoring myself right now? Where am I not showing myself that same respect? Where am I not looking at myself honestly and openly. And that's where we start to realize. Wow! There's some old wounds there. There are some pieces there. Just think about it in the areas of your life where you're the most confident and calm. If someone does something to you, even your partner, it'll be like. But you won't be like you are not fulfilling my needs

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Katie Rössler: because they're already fulfilled. There are. There's not an issue. But when when somebody kind of sandpapers up against a wound, it opens it back up.

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Katie Rössler: And so you're exactly right like, Hey, I'm I feel like I'm being ignored. Where have I felt this before in the past? And how am I doing it right now to myself.

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Emma O'Brien: Yeah. And I think often

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Emma O'Brien: I think it's something women do in particular is hoping somebody will notice that they're feeling like they're being ignored, I think, as as women it's I mean. And I say this because it's it's a journey I've been on in my own life, in multiple places.

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Emma O'Brien: is, we often

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Emma O'Brien: wait for somebody to pick up that we're upset rather than saying.

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Emma O'Brien: Hang on a minute.

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Emma O'Brien: I'm actually feeling very upset right now, please, could you put the phone away. I I need some of your time and attention

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Emma O'Brien: and doing that rather than sitting and festering. It's hard, and I and I'm sure, you know you can talk more about this communication piece is.

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Emma O'Brien: I think women find it very hard to ask for what they want.

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Katie Rössler: As well.

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Emma O'Brien: One thing, and I think sometimes we expect our partners to mind read

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Emma O'Brien: and then get upset when they don't.

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Katie Rössler: Yeah, absolutely, you know. So I always teach my clients that we have basically 3 ages. Right? We have, like our biological age. We have kind of our IQ number. That kind of creates sort of an age as well. Right? And then we have our emotional intelligence. Age

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Katie Rössler: and a majority of us were not modeled. Healthy, emotional intelligence, I mean, that's why it's so big to discuss right now in the workplace, in families, in relationships, personal growth is, oh, build your emotional intelligence because we didn't have it already developed.

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Katie Rössler: So we have to set realistic expectations of our partner, too, to say what age is their emotional intelligence, not to, you know. Belittle them.

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Katie Rössler: not to create contempt of like. I'm better than you. I've worked on my emotional intelligence, but but to say, you meet things emotionally like maybe a 13 or 14 year old. Until you work on that I can't expect you to mind read. I don't know a 13 year old who reads my mind no right like oh, I should be more caring and considerate.

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Katie Rössler: but we see them physically looking a certain age, and intellectually, being a certain age and going well, you you should get this. You should figure it out.

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Katie Rössler: We don't do those things, too. I can think of so many times in my own marriage, where I have dropped the ball emotionally for my husband, because I was in my own mind doing my own thing. And I've done a lot of emotional intelligence work. So there, there's a component of us giving our partner grace and having realistic expectations.

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Katie Rössler: just like we do for ourselves. Often, right? We'll justify the heck out of why we didn't do something, but as soon as they start doing it we won't take that excuse. It's like, No, no. So yeah, there, there is. This piece of

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Katie Rössler: we can't expect anyone to mind read.

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Katie Rössler: and we have to deal with the uncomfortability of speaking our truth and what we need.

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Katie Rössler: I will say, though, Emma, I find often people don't actually know what they need.

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Katie Rössler: Because it'll be like, I need more help.

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Katie Rössler: I need more, you know. I need you to show up more well, in what way, how you should just know. Why should I have to tell you what you write.

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Emma O'Brien: Yep.

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Katie Rössler: But then they show up, and I do this with couples. I'll be like well. But she showed up. You said, Show up more. She showed up.

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Katie Rössler: but not the way I wanted. Okay, but you weren't specific. So when you leave it vague, they get to interpret right. They get to decide if there is something you really want, even if they've known you for 20 years. I don't care. Say, I want this.

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Katie Rössler: You don't have to add, you know what I want, and you know I've always been this way. Okay, cool. That doesn't help. I I want you to give me a hug and a kiss when you leave the house every day.

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Katie Rössler: even if you've got so many other things on your mind like that's what I need from you.

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Katie Rössler: And then, if they forget it, and they don't do it. Give them that period of like, hey? I'm just reminding you. And then that's a discussion. If they keep ignoring that that's a different discussion.

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Katie Rössler: But be okay, saying what you need, and take some time to figure out what that is. I I often have

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Katie Rössler: had really heated discussions with my husband, and he'll be like, you know, it's like, Well, what is it you need from me? And I'm like, I don't know, because I hadn't thought that part through. I just thought about the pain and the frustration and the like.

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Katie Rössler: You annoy me because you did this, and then it's like, you're right. How would I want this? Well, I'd want you to stop doing that. But

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Katie Rössler: logically, what do I really need? Yeah.

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Emma O'Brien: Yeah, yeah, I want you to stop this. And instead, I'd like you to do this. Yeah. And I think often we can get stuck, can't we, in the the negative part of what we don't want? And I love that you brought up that actually, people don't know what they need cause in

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Emma O'Brien: my life. Coaching practice people will come to me with

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Emma O'Brien: like you've said. They know what they want to stop thought they want, what they don't want to do. They don't want this job. They don't want this. But when you say, Okay, well, where are we going? And what do you want? Instead? The they might have an idea of what they want, but they've told themselves they can't actually have that.

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Katie Rössler: Yes, yup!

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Emma O'Brien: Possible for me, and I think sometimes we can get almost a bit addicted to the misery. It's easier to whinge than it is to make a make a big change. And obviously in couples, we need to be making changes in tandem with our partner. You can't have one partner doing all the work, and the other one not doing it because it's a bit of a recipe for disaster.

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Katie Rössler: Yeah, very true. This is a big reason. When I started working with couples I was really adamant. My 1st training in couples work was like. You only work with the couple, not the individuals that can make it really challenging for you. But now, the way I work with couples, I say at least one session I have to have with each of you individually, cause I need to see where you are on your personal growth journey. I need to see what are the things maybe you don't want to say to your partner because you're embarrassed, you feel shame or guilt.

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Katie Rössler: and they're holding you back. Maybe there's stuff at work. You don't want to scare them and make them nervous about. But you're willing to tell me. And you know I'm gonna keep it confidential unless it's like this really will impact the relationship. So it becomes a little more of a personal growth journey for the individual. And then, as a couple a relationship development journey.

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Katie Rössler: And I just remind them that often how we built the foundation of our relationship just needs to it's already faulty, right. It's already cracked and having issues like, let's just remove all that, and let's start fresh, because now you've learned so much more.

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Katie Rössler: And there's old habits, and there's things from our past and things from our our family generationally that we don't want to do anymore. So why don't we start fresh? And yes, that means growing pains, and that means, you know. Oh, I fell into the old habit now I need to take ownership and get back into the new habit. But why not like? Why why not do that work?

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Katie Rössler: It helps you grow as a person, and then it helps you with the relationship. And and you know, when you introduce me, you shared. Sometimes I help couples just separate and say, we're not actually gonna make this work. That's okay, too. But you won't know that if you're not being the person you would want to be in your ideal relationship.

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Katie Rössler: like, if you're not acting the way you want to be, then don't expect your partner to change, and don't expect the relationship to change, and that is tough love. And I say that for as a woman who really has had to do the work, because I'm very good at being like I'm walking away from this. Forget it. I don't. Wanna. I don't wanna do the work. This is too much work, it's too hard. And I realized that's my generational family pattern.

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Katie Rössler: That's not me.

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Katie Rössler: I want to show up every day and be like, okay, I'm getting a little bit better at being more patient with you, getting a little bit better at sharing what I need.

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Katie Rössler: I'm getting a little bit better, being more connecting in the way you want to connect. Just not the way that I want to connect right.

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Katie Rössler: And and then I can go more logically. Do I want to walk away from this or not?

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Katie Rössler: Yeah, because I'm being the person I want to be for whatever future relationship, then that might show up.

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Emma O'Brien: Yeah. And I think that leads me to my next question of lots of people jump from one relationship to another.

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Katie Rössler: Wow!

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Emma O'Brien: When the going gets tough. But I think there is a fine, the fine line, and it's

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Emma O'Brien: something that can often happen. I know from my own experience, because I've been presented with it is

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Emma O'Brien: often in my own relationships. I've got to a point where the going has got really tough, and I've gone cheers. Thanks for playing. I'm out of here.

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Katie Rössler: Yeah.

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Emma O'Brien: And

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Emma O'Brien: I don't regret never done that twice. I don't regret doing it. The second time the relationship was yeah. It was a I was in a relationship with, shall we say an overgrown child?

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Emma O'Brien: And he, if I look back compassionately about it. This man had been had a terrible sort of fatherly modeling.

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Emma O'Brien: and he hadn't realized he'd stepped in. He told me this father was foul, but he'd stepped into playing the exact same role and hadn't noticed. And I think it's a problem when people don't have that self awareness.

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Katie Rössler: Yup!

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Emma O'Brien: And I was reflecting before before this podcast because it's such a powerful question, when do you keep doing the work.

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Katie Rössler: Yeah.

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Emma O'Brien: And when are you gaslighting yourself into? If I keep doing the work, something might

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Emma O'Brien: change, because I think for for this particular man, I mean

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Emma O'Brien: it was a an emo. I was frightened of him, so that's never good to be frightened of somebody. Could it have been worked on in therapy.

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Emma O'Brien: I don't know. Do I regret leaving? Do I regret leaving the relationship? Absolutely, not because it was the wrong thing. But I think when we start to talk about relationships reflecting back the inner work

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Emma O'Brien: you you need to do.

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Emma O'Brien: Sometimes people jump ship like you've said when the going gets tough, when it. It is a large speed bump that could be worked through, but sometimes it really is never going to work. So how do we know about that? Because it's a very nuanced

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Emma O'Brien: line in the sand.

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Katie Rössler: Absolutely, absolutely. And you know, and I think some as you step back and reflect at the relationship you could say like, Hey, I didn't feel safe. That should have been, you know. Totally. Yeah. So there are certain things.

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Katie Rössler: you know. If you and I were in session, I'd be like, let's like, give me the lowdown in each of those relationships. Let's see what were the similarities and what were the the growth lessons for you? What were the things that you were working through, because sometimes we're attracted to the same person in different forms.

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Katie Rössler: And that's a reflection of what is it we need to be working on within ourselves. So if you find you're kind of hopping from relationship to relationship, and it gets hard at a certain point, what's happening? What are the signs? Are you gravitating to the unhealthy scary, but super charismatic, and seem so wonderful. Extrovert right, you know, like whatever it might be. So look at those things, and and let's say right now you're not in a relationship. And you're you're listening to this.

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Katie Rössler: Write down what are like. If you were kind of the consultant of your relationships. Okay? And this one, this is what happened. This is how they were. And this one, this is what happened. This is how they were, and then to the side of it. And this is how I was.

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Katie Rössler: Were you more quiet and meek? Were you really aggressive and outspoken. Were you like what? What shifted and changed? Because the only way for us to learn is to kind of watch the movie of those relationships play out and go what really happened.

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Katie Rössler: And sometimes we need that time and distance to be able to have that. But how? You're asked like, how do you know, when it's time to go versus like, I'll just keep working on me.

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Katie Rössler: The more you work on you it should naturally change the system, you know if if you think of cogs and a wheel when one starts to turn the other way, the others kind of fight against it, but eventually they'll change. That is how any healthy running system works. If I, in my relationship started to say

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Katie Rössler: like a certain colloquial phrase in America, right? My husband's German. If I started saying, A funny! I'm trying to think something in the South, we would say like

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Katie Rössler: Gosh, darn it if I said, Gosh, darn it, a whole bunch over a week.

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Katie Rössler: I would be really surprised if the following week or 2 my husband didn't want to say Gosh darn it! Because the system has changed in our communication. And I've started to say that my, I have 3 kids. If I started to say something within 3 days, they're saying it, too. Right? Like systems change.

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Katie Rössler: So you start to shift how you communicate, how patient you are speaking your needs right. And if within a month or 2. You're not seeing more awareness in them, more self reflection or a tantrum them fighting back because you're changing the system.

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Katie Rössler: Then that's red flags. So you either want the tantrum because you're like, you're feeling it consistent. Keep going. I know I'm doing it right right. Or, oh, you're changing for the good. And you're you're kind of

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Katie Rössler: mirroring what I'm doing. Great. But if they're just baseline staying the same, you're not seeing any shift either way, that right there to me is a good clear cut sign. We gotta be doing it for for a couple of weeks. Couple of months of like consistent. I don't mean like I was good for a day, and then 5 days of being, you know, absolute jerk to you. No, but you gotta be really consistent. That's where you already are making the big changes within yourself and the shifts.

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Katie Rössler: And then you can say our relationship is not, you know, moving smoothly.

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Katie Rössler: and then you can present that to them if you want to, or you can make the decision on your own, or you come to someone like me who you say, hey, I really think this isn't working. I'd love your perspective right? I'd love to kind of see what you think. And then from there you can make an educated decision.

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Katie Rössler: But I I always like to make decisions from a really calm, collected place.

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Katie Rössler: And that doesn't mean they can't be emotional because there can be like a

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Katie Rössler: no, I'm leaving right like. And you just feel this calm. This is what I'm gonna do.

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Emma O'Brien: Yeah.

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Katie Rössler: And when you feel irritated, when you feel annoyed, when you feel hurt, when you feel scared any of these things, these are these emotions are the the flags of pay attention.

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Katie Rössler: and then you can sit down and reflect. Is this about me? Is the mirror effect happening? Is there something in them that they're changing. And I don't like.

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Katie Rössler: do they have some addiction issues? Do they have? You know, I work with a lot of couples where it's like, yeah. And just in the last couple of years, especially post Covid, like, he's starting to struggle with addiction. And it's like, Okay, let's talk about that cause that will damage not only the foundation of your relationship, but any future.

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Katie Rössler: Yeah. And and that can be a time to say, I I have to walk away because the journey that partner is going to go on of the roller coaster with addiction. You can choose not to go on it.

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Katie Rössler: You can choose that right. But at the end of the day I think it goes back to a lot of us were raised with sort of the Disney. You know you meet your knight in shining armor, or the Princess, and you get married and live happily ever after. And that's just not how it works. We know this logically but emotionally. We're still looking for kind of that Savior or that person to protect.

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Katie Rössler: And those are old stories that we have to let go of. So we can start to find those really healthy people we want to be with.

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Emma O'Brien: Yeah, I said this on one of my other podcasts as well. Disney has an awful lot to answer for.

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Katie Rössler: Oh, my! Gosh! Yes.

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Emma O'Brien: I mean for the expectations that are are set up. And and I think it's if I mean I'm 43 now. So grew up with proper patriarchal Disney movies where the Prince comes in and rescues the Princess. And and you're right. It subconsciously sets up. This is what a relationship

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Emma O'Brien: is, and I think for me it's been the the 2 other long term relationships I've had. God! What a disappointment! Prince really didn't show up very well at all. But then I don't think the Prince knew what he was supposed to do, and and we were the, you know, the guy was saying that I was frightened of look. That was

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Emma O'Brien: if I if I look back on that now.

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Emma O'Brien: I'd come out of a marriage he was coming out of a marriage I mean. The foundation of it was a disaster, and there were red flags from the get go. But I'd been in a marriage that I felt very lonely in.

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Emma O'Brien: and this guy, I thought, was the complete opposite of my

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Emma O'Brien: ex-husband.

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Katie Rössler: He needed. Yes.

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Emma O'Brien: Ways, some ways. No, so, and I think

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Emma O'Brien: the thing is here is you have got to choose yourself when it comes to making a decision about staying or leaving a relationship. But I think you have to choose yourself from a place of self awareness. Yeah. And you have to know yourself really well to to like, you've said, been able to make a calm choice of.

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Emma O'Brien: I've done everything I can do. This isn't working for me anymore, because the one thing that popped into my head while you're talking is, it can be very easy to get into a cycle of doing self development work

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Emma O'Brien: in the hopes that the person you're with changes, and then it becomes a little bit manipulative.

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Katie Rössler: Yup!

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Emma O'Brien: I think.

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Katie Rössler: Yup, this is that piece where it needs to be about you being the person you want to be in the ideal relationship you want to have. That's the focus, knowing that the system should change. So you're gonna be the best version of you. You're gonna show up where you look in the mirror and go like, yeah, I kicked ass as a partner today, and then the hope is, and and usually the shift comes where they start to

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Katie Rössler: fight against the system because you're changing, and I I like to joke. Sometimes. We've given our partner like the King size bed at the Hilton and filet Mignon every night, and now we're making them have ground beef and and sleep, maybe on the floor. And it's things are shifting, and they're not gonna like that. But then you find a healthy compromise.

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Katie Rössler: It's okay. But if if those things aren't shifting, then you have to show up as the person you want to be that you want to look at every day in the mirror, and that I think many of us didn't have moms who did that.

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Katie Rössler: or women in our lives who did that right because they didn't know to do that. They weren't generationally shown to do that. And you know you were talking about Disney.

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Katie Rössler: 40 years old. Same.

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Katie Rössler: I grew up in a Southern Baptist in the America family, and a Catholic family on both sides, so I had a lot of conditioning around what a wife is allowed to do or be, or around sex, and what's what that's supposed to look like.

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Emma O'Brien: Yeah.

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Katie Rössler: And it was just like, Oh, my gosh, right? So there's so much deconditioning like, how can I show up as the partner I want to be in my ideal relationship. If I don't face all of that has nothing to do with my husband, does it right? That's nothing to do with him, so I shouldn't make it about him. I gotta do my work

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Katie Rössler: so that I can be that partner, and hope that by doing that by having those conversations like when I'll tell my husband. Man, I realized the other day, like my parents used to have discussions about this, and that makes me think this he'll be like, Oh, wow! Oh, my gosh! I realize like my parents used to have, you know, like it makes him think.

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Emma O'Brien: Yes.

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Katie Rössler: And then he'll start to share. And that's a beautiful conversation we can have. And then it's like, How do we hold each other accountable to not repeat that with our kids like, how do we not pass this on? So you have to talk about what you're doing, too? But it's all being consistent in the change, as well.

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Emma O'Brien: Yeah. And I think the other thing that I found really powerful on my own self development journey is learning to be able to listen to your partner.

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Emma O'Brien: criticize you to any use the word criticism, give you feedback, however much that stings a little bit, to be able to listen to it and take it on board without firing back on the defensive. And I think that's been for me and my husband. That has been a game changer

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Emma O'Brien: in learning to shut up and realize that you might not want to hear what's been said. But if you want to have a relationship that blossoms and grows as much as you expect to be able to voice your feelings and say, when you do. XI feel y please do z instead.

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Katie Rössler: Yep.

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Emma O'Brien: It's a 2 way street, and one has to learn to take it on board.

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Emma O'Brien: and kind of say I might not necessarily agree with that. But I'm going to be quiet in the moment rather than escalating this by

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Emma O'Brien: bouncing it

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Emma O'Brien: back, because sometimes we do need somebody else to reflect back. If you want your partner to change, you also have to be prepared to

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Emma O'Brien: look at where you might be less perfect. It's a little bit difficult, I know, but sometimes you have to be. Have to be aware

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Emma O'Brien: that you've also perhaps got some work to do to meet their needs as well, that you might not agree with.

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Katie Rössler: Yup, yeah, definitely, I I find this, too. You know, we're both entrepreneurs. If I present to my husband I have this great idea. I'm gonna do this master class series. I'm gonna teach this. And I'm gonna do that. And he starts asking questions.

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Katie Rössler: just logical questions.

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Emma O'Brien: Don't ask those logical questions, is.

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Katie Rössler: Is going to be free. And what is what is the roi and what you know? I get so reactive. But what I've realized, and this is with any dream we have is that if I haven't sat down and really thought about the dream and the logic of it, so that I'm confident in this decision I'm making. Then

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Katie Rössler: I'm not going to be okay with the questions.

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Katie Rössler: But if if a coach asked me those questions, if my friend asked me those questions. If a fellow business person said, Hey, tell me, okay. So what are you thinking about this? You want to do it for free, or you want to do the

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Katie Rössler: I'm much more open. It's cause it's my partner.

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Katie Rössler: So if I will just be quiet and listen to those questions and go. I don't feel like I'm emotionally in the right state to answer this right now without getting Snarky. But I know you're asking me some questions. I need to think about. Let me come back to you. Let's just halt this conversation. I'll come back to you when I'm ready. Then I have way. More productive conversations with him. He's not asking me anything that's unreasonable, and he's not saying anything. Somebody else wouldn't say to me, but it's cause it's him.

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Katie Rössler: and he's not cheerleading me on, and ready to like jump into, you know, on the rainbow with me and go. Let's just see where it takes us.

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Katie Rössler: I get upset.

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Katie Rössler: So you're right. We have to stop and listen, and also go. Am I overreacting because

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Katie Rössler: I want

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Katie Rössler: you know him or her to respond a certain way, and I want them to be some. That's not logically how they are like realistic expectations. Again, right? That's just not who they are. Well, then I need to stop sharing my pearls amongst you know him or her until I'm really ready and confident to say these are the best pearls I have, and I know why. Here you go. Yeah, yeah.

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Emma O'Brien: 2 things in there I want to to mention, and that is, I think, often. I mean, we're we're 2 women, straight women married to men. So I'm using this example is, men often want to fix things. I'm married to an engineer. He fixes things for a living.

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Katie Rössler: Thank you.

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Emma O'Brien: So sometimes I have to flag up. I just need you to listen to me. I don't need a solution. I just need to vent a little bit, and I just need you to empathize with me. That's all I need right now. And it's okay to voice that with a partner, because I think if you're quite

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Emma O'Brien: triggered by something that's happened externally. And you actually just want to listen. Sometimes men need to know that that's what they need to do. That's what's required of them. They don't need to step in and and fix it.

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Emma O'Brien: The other thing that you said, which I think is really powerful, and I want to flag it up. Is

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Emma O'Brien: you talked about when you were sharing ideas with your husband? And he asked you questions and you got quite reactive, is it's okay to push, pause on a conversation. Sometimes I think this is something that people forget if you are flooded with emotion and it's starting to escalate.

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Emma O'Brien: And you think

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Emma O'Brien: it's going to hit into an argument, or you're going to say something you shouldn't. It's perfectly okay to say I need 5 min. I need 24 HI need to push. Pause on this. I need a bit of space, and I think this is something everybody forgets is

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Emma O'Brien: you can't have a constructive conversation with any other human. If the pair of you are in like massively heightened in a stress response, and

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Emma O'Brien: the only way you resolve something is by both of you sitting down calmly and being able to listen and to hear and listen.

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Emma O'Brien: and give each other space to talk, and that only happens in a space of neutrality. I don't think anything good comes from 2 people being really, really fired up, but

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Emma O'Brien: we're not taught this.

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Emma O'Brien: and like you've talked about not having great parenting models. I mean, you've from a very conservative religious background.

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Emma O'Brien: I'm sure you didn't see any women voicing their needs, particularly in that space.

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Emma O'Brien: And the same, you know, I've had a a similar. My, my

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Emma O'Brien: mum is a big people pleaser.

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Emma O'Brien: and I also didn't really have it modeled that it's okay to to calmly voice what you want

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Emma O'Brien: the dynamic with my parents was my mum would get very het up very, very upset, and my dad would just couldn't deal with, you know. Just stop crying, and I had it growing up. If I got upset. Stop crying. You sound like your mother.

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Emma O'Brien: And you know it's

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Emma O'Brien: it. Yeah, difficult. It's a difficult thing to put to to kind of deal with and process

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Emma O'Brien: through.

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Katie Rössler: Yup!

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Emma O'Brien: And then you end up learning to sort of tuck everything away whole other conversation. But I think it's

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Emma O'Brien: a reminder for folks listening that the point you've just made, and what we've just talked about is it's perfectly okay. If you feel yourself

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Emma O'Brien: that stress response rising, you feel yourself getting very triggered, and you can't cope with a conversation. It's perfectly okay to say to the other person, I actually can't cope with this conversation right now. I'm struggling. I'm I'm not going to to be able to think clearly.

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Emma O'Brien: Can we come back to this? Could I? Can I go for a walk for a minute can I go out? And you know I need a bit of space.

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Katie Rössler: Yup, and always return and have the conversation. Because what happens is you get a list of built up. We still need to finish that conversation. We still need to finish that conversation, and really what you're doing is avoiding. So if you say I'll be back in 20 min, set your alarm. Be back in 20 min, and vice versa. Right? Your partner gets the right to do that, too. But walking out of the room and slamming the door.

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Katie Rössler: That doesn't go anywhere, so we often mirror like you said we often mirror what our parents did, or even sometimes the opposite of what we saw our parents do. And that's that emotional intelligence piece of where we got to do the work.

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Katie Rössler: And we've got to be more self aware both parties right in the relationship of. I don't want to keep doing that.

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Katie Rössler: How do I start to shift this?

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Katie Rössler: And I think that piece is crucial.

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Emma O'Brien: Yeah, so powerful, Katie, this has been such a wonderful, I feel like we could continue, probably for about another 2 h. Such a powerful conversation, and and so many reminders in here about

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Emma O'Brien: noticing

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Emma O'Brien: what's what your partner triggers in you to as an invitation for where you can do some work, starting to choose your yourself and really getting to know yourself. So you know what you want to choose, you know yourself, and communicating really effectively with with your partner and for it to be okay for you to to voice your needs in a relationship.

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Katie Rössler: Won't we?

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Katie Rössler: Absolutely.

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Emma O'Brien: You have a relationship quiz

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Emma O'Brien: that people can do online. Could you tell us a little bit more about that? What that involves, what people are gonna get out of that, and how they access that.

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Katie Rössler: Yeah, definitely. So it's a assessment rather than a quiz. And they you book a call with me, each of you individually, because I find that we we alter how we answer questions when our partners

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Katie Rössler: oh, honey! Well, what did what would you say about this? And it's like. No, no, I want to know what you think. So be both of you. Get a complimentary call with me usually lasts about 30 min, and we look at 7 core areas of your relationship. And I have you really give me your point of view on it. And what would create the ideal scenario of it shifting. And then we talk about goals to make that happen. I love doing them. It's so fascinating to see how the interconnection between trust and respect

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Katie Rössler: and connection and intimacy. If we don't trust our partner to get things done in the day to day, not about the big big like. Oh, they'll have an affair. But, like.

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Katie Rössler: you know, if I tell you to do this, are you going to remember? Kind of thing? Then we start to respect them less, and we start to parent them, and we talk to them differently.

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Katie Rössler: And then from there we don't feel like connecting, because who wants to do that when you feel like a parent.

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Katie Rössler: so all of these things. But when you do this assessment, you start to see these patterns come out, and it's something I can I can reveal to you like, Hey, do you notice this? And it's like, Oh, my God! That's it!

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Katie Rössler: And then from there you can, you know, decide if the program I have for couples and individuals makes sense for you and your partner.

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Katie Rössler: And I. I love again helping couples rebuild so. But everyone has to go through this level. 10 relationship assessment to see where are they? What makes sense as far as support? Or do they feel like they're quite confident where they are.

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Emma O'Brien: Amazing. And where do people find that Katie.

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Katie Rössler: Yeah, so it's Katie russler.com forward. Slash relationship, dash, dash assessments. I'll make sure you've got the link for the show notes.

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Emma O'Brien: Magic. I'll put that in the show notes. And then where can folks connect with you on socials?

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Katie Rössler: Yeah. So, Instagram, I'm quite active on. That's just Katie dot rustler, and you don't have to do the O with the funny dots just O normal you can find me on Facebook as well. Katie Rustler or Linkedin Katie Russler, Lpc. Which stands for licensed professional counselor.

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Emma O'Brien: Brilliant. I'll put all of those in the show notes so folks can come and get in touch with you, Katie. This has been a really wonderful conversation. Thank you for being with me today. I've got a lot out of it, and I'm sure everybody listening has too.

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Katie Rössler: Thank you, Emma. I enjoyed our talk.

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Emma O'Brien: Thank you for being with us today, folks. I will see you next time, bye, for now.